Heads in the SandLiving in Prague, thinking of Iraq: three exiles talk about home.
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If the long run-up to war in Iraq has enriched us in any commodity, it is opinion. We are positively wallowing in opinion, a dazzling array of it accessible 24/7 in multiple media. We know what millions of anti-war activists think. We know what Vladimir Špidla thinks, what George Bush thinks, what Jacques Chirac thinks. We know what the news anchors, talking heads, pundits, experts and “experts” think about what these people think. We think we might know what Saddam Hussein thinks. For months, the pages of The Pill have been graced, like most other media, with arguments for and against the war, and we are happy to take part in a robust debate. But regardless of their content and thrust, the vast majority of opinions expressed here and elsewhere have something in common: They are not informed by firsthand experience of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, or of spending decades exiled from one’s home, or of having family and friends who stand to be affected in the most direct and intimate way by what the rest of the world decides to do in the coming days and weeks. That doesn’t make the rest of the opinions invalid, and we’ll keep bringing you those. For this issue, however, we wanted to hear not from the presidents and the protesters, but from prominent Iraqis here in Prague, survivors with distinct views—about what those presidents and protesters are doing and what it might mean for their country. The interviews below were conducted by Joshua Cohen, Andy Markowitz and Markéta Hofmeisterová, respectively. Thanks to Menef Khalife, Talley Mulligan and Travis Jeppesen for their help. Democracy Isn’t Something to Eat An Interview with Ahmed Karim Ahmed Karim has no friends. The head of the National Democratic Communist Movement of Iraq dislikes the Hussein regime almost as much as he dislikes the Bush administration. This pacifist Kurd, a Baghdad native and a member of the Communist Party for half a century, is stuck in the middle with some espresso, a half pack of Marlboro Reds, and a tape recorder in the fifth-floor restaurant of Kotva. Pill: What is the purpose of your organization? Karim: Our organization does not agree with the politics of the leadership of Iraq, with the politics of the leadership of the Communist Party of Iraq. We especially do not agree with their foreign policies. The leaderships are mistaken. We are also against the sanctions and aggressions of the American administration. Our organization attempts to influence the Iraqi leadership and to start a dialogue with them and with communists who are now outside of the official party in the hopes of electing a new leadership. Our organization is based in France. I am Kurdish. The Communist Party, the movement, is not based on nationality. You can be Kurd or Arab or Muslim or Jewish, it is not important. If you believe as we do, you are one of us. Pill: What are your views on the regime of Saddam Hussein? Karim: The government of Iraq is, as you say, the regime of Saddam Hussein. The regime is not democratic and we are working towards a new situation through dialogue. The regime was imposed on the Iraqi people. Iraq needs new leadership. Iraq needs a new constitution. Iraq needs democracy. Our policy is not to overthrow the regime through force. We think that together with the present Baath party and with other democratic movements, nationalist and communist, Kurd and Arab, we will be able to influence the situation and introduce new leadership. Pill: Is your goal to establish a communist government in Iraq? Karim: No. We are not thinking along those lines. We want a democratic government. Even the Baath party may participate. We want to alter the situation peacefully. There is no other option. There is no influence on the present government through force from within. The only way is through dialogue. Dialogue is also the only solution to the problem the Bush administration has with Iraq. Pill: So you obviously don’t support the US war against Iraq? Karim: Of course I condemn it. And I cannot say this is war. This is aggression. A war is between two sides who want war. If one side does not want war and the other side does, this is aggression. Iraq is obliged into war through force. This aggression is also against the [interests of the] American people. Pill: What are the motives for this aggression? Karim: Everyone knows that one motive is petrol, but not the only one. The United States, and the companies which support this administration, wants to control the world. Iraq is a first step. Then Europe. Also it is thought they [Iraq] have weapons, biological and chemical. These weapons they used on the Kurds. These weapons were received from the United States. I remember very well the United States’ support of Iraq. The aim of the Bush administration is not to save the Iraqi people from dictatorship. This is a lie. Democracy is created from within. It is not imposed. This didn’t work with Afghanistan and it won’t work [in Iraq].The idea that the United States will bring freedom and democracy [to Iraq] is ridiculous. Freedom and democracy come from the people. Freedom and democracy are not something to eat, not something to give to someone. They are made. They [the United States] impose democracy the same as they impose war. How can you be a democracy and impose? How can you be a democracy and occupy? Simply, the aim of this aggression is world dominance. Actually the world will serve the United States and the United States will serve Israel and Israel will serve Zionism. Pill: How do you feel about the international response to the prospects of war? Karim: These [recent anti-war] demonstrations are examples. They say 20 million people, maybe more, maybe less, who knows? History has never seen such things. These were larger than Vietnam [protests]. And not only people are against it. The governments are too. This situation is no help to the Bush administration. Pill: This war seems inevitable. After this war is over, what do you see as the role of your organization in the new leadership of Iraq? Karim: My friend, it will not be so easy. Not for anyone. This aggression means a disaster for the Iraqi people. If anyone thinks that this aggression will save Iraq from its regime, they will soon understand otherwise. Again I will say it: The situation must be altered peacefully. I want to see a democratic Iraq. And like all Kurds, I want to see a democratic Kurdish state. Our land is in Iraq, Iran and Turkey. But I am sometimes realistic. Depending on the situation, I will return. And I will attempt to participate and help my people. Get Rid of the Bastard An Interview with Mowfak Fattohi Mowfak Fattohi worked as an economist in the Iraqi government in the 1960s and ‘70s. In 1975 he was dismissed for refusing to join Saddam Hussein’s Baath party. Following a period of detention, he left Iraq on September 13, 1978, and has not been back to his native Baghdad since. Last year, however, he traveled to Kurd-controlled northern Iraq as a member of the Central Council of the Iraqi National Congress (INC), an umbrella group of organizations opposing Saddam. He spoke to the Pill in his office in Prague 4, before attending a meeting with the Kuwaiti ambassador. Pill: What is your view of the current government of Iraq? Fattohi: This government has no legitimacy. They came [to power] by a coup, they have controlled and governed Iraq for 34 years with no constitution. This government entered two wars outside Iraq and continues one war inside Iraq, against the people. This government is considered, internationally, an outlaw government. This government controls Iraq in the name of the Baath party, but in reality there is no Baath party. There is Saddam Hussein. In the year 1979, when Saddam Hussein [officially] came to power, he executed 77 leading members of the Baath party. So there is no Baath party; there is mafia controlling the party. Pill: Do you believe that Saddam Hussein has a weapons program and is intending to use weapons of mass destruction? Fattohi: In detail, I do not know. I am not qualified. But if you recall, when the Gulf War ended, Saddam Hussein signed or agreed to over 30 Security Council resolutions. One of them says Saddam Hussein has to submit a final report within one month about all his weapons. [If he complies] the embargo will be lifted and Iraq would be back to normal. Iraq within one month submits a report. Inspectors look at this report and they say, “This is not enough.” Saddam submitted another report, and the inspectors rejected it. And he submitted another report, and the inspectors rejected it. Every report he submitted, he added something. Now, I am telling you this in one minute, but this took four years. In 1995, his two sons-in-law fled the country and they gave all the information that they have [about weapons programs], and the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein claims that it doesn’t know about this. Somebody was hiding it from them. So this gives you an indication. Pill: Do you favor a U.S.-led war to change the regime? Fattohi: I don’t want war. I want Iraq to be free, whether through the Americans, or through you, or through the Czech Republic. You are drowning, and you ask for help. If somebody will give you a hand, you will not say I like you or I don’t; you want to go out from the water, yes? We want to come back to our country. We want to live in peace. We want to establish normal relations with our neighbors and with the world. We are not asking for war. [President] Bush says, “I want to help to rebuild Iraq, I want Iraq to be part of the international community.” I cannot say to him, “Go to hell.” Pill: If there is a war and it removes Saddam Hussein, what do you foresee taking his place? Fattohi: Nobody can say. But the Iraqi opposition and the INC, we have a program, and we have our constitution. We want democratic elections; we want to establish relations with our neighbors, with the international community; we want to invest our money in Iraq. This is what we are working for. We want the international community to understand — we are out of authority because our leader staged a coup and became a dictator. We are all literate, we have a good standard of education, we have a good standard of expertise. And what we want is that the international community will help us get rid of this bastard, and after that we will help ourselves. Pill: What do you think about the opposition to the war? Fattohi: We understand this position. But I was participating in the demonstration in Prague [on February 22], and I didn’t see or read any slogan against dictatorship, against Saddam Hussein. Except one, which was held by an Iraqi. These people, we are with them. But if they say they want to help Iraqi people, they have to speak about what the Iraqi people want. As great as this demonstration was, the main slogan needs to be “End dictatorship in Iraq,” not just “Peace in Iraq.” Pill: There’s been a lot of discussion about the United States’ motives in pursuing this war. What do you believe those motives are? Fattohi: The Americans have their own policy, their own strategy, for sure. They are not only working for their values, they are working for their benefits. To implement the American values of democracy and human rights, it depends on us, not on the Americans. We understand very well that the Americans are not merely doing this as a favor for the Iraqi people; they are doing it for their benefit and their strategy. Pill: And if their interests coincide with those of the INC, you are satisfied. Fattohi: Yes. We are fighting for our values. And they are fighting for their values and their interests. Their interests and our interests can be present on the table. We Don’t Trust Americans Anymore An Interview with Mohamed Asad Mohamed Asad, founder of the Iraqi Club humanitarian organization, arrived in Prague in 1969 after a stint in an Iraqi prison on unspecified charges. In Prague, he studied at the Agricultural Faculty and married a Czech woman. In 1977, he returned to Iraq to teach; however, after Saddam Hussein rose to power, Asad left and returned to Czechoslovakia with his pregnant wife. Here he specialized in genetics, experimenting with sheep to produce higher quality wool and meat. Now he manages a petrol station in Žižkov. Pill: What is your organization and what does it believe in? Asad: I founded the Iraqi Club, a humanitarian organization, in the early ‘90s, after [the invasion of] Kuwait. The organization provides aid to Iraqis living in the Czech Republic, especially those who do not yet have Czech citizenship. We help them adjust socially; we help them learn the Czech language, to find work, to obtain residence permission. Among us there are a lot of communists, Christians, Sunnis and Shiites. Pill: What is your view of the current government of Iraq? Is it legitimate? Asad: Of course this regime is not legitimate. I know so many people who did not vote for him in the last election [when Saddam would be elected for another seven years], or who gave blank lists, but he was elected. Whom to compare him? To Hitler? Not enough. Haile Selassie? Not terrible enough. In the first two weeks of the first coup, starting on July 17, 1968, Saddam picked 1,415 people from the leadership of the Baath party and killed them. It is said that the war against Iran took one million victims, maybe 2 million. I lost my brother in that war and another died in the Kuwaiti War. This is not legitimate. Pill: Do you believe Saddam Hussein possesses and intends to use weapons of mass destruction? Asad: I really don’t know, but if he had chance to use them, he would for sure. Americans say he does possess them, but they haven’t proved it yet. We cannot say. We all know that when he has [weapons], he doesn’t hesitate to use them. We know he used biological and chemical weapons against the Kurds and Iranians. Pill: Do you favor regime change? Asad: Yes, we want to be like all normal people, to come home, turn on the radio and go to sleep. We want democracy, we want normal elections. Pill: Do you favor a US-led or UN-led war to impose regime change? Asad: We have to ask who made Saddam Hussein so big and powerful. It was the USA, Great Britain, Russia, Czechoslovakia, they were giving him what he wanted, what he was looking for, because of oil. If there has to be war, it should be a UN-led war. We don’t trust Americans anymore. They are Mafiosi, like Saddam is. Pill: What do you think are the motives for a US-led war against Iraq? Asad: Of course it’s the oil. Americans have oil and it will be soon depleted. I don’t believe that they care about the Iraqi people. If they did, they could have helped years ago. Pill: What do you think of the opposition to the war in the US and Europe? Asad: I agree with their idea [that there should be] no war and no Saddam. He should be pushed to leave. Pill: What is your response to the support of the Czech government of the U.S.-led war against Iraq? Asad: The government of the Czech Republic is small. They try to be bigger. They want to be liked by America. Czech Republic let the Americans install Radio Free Europe—Radio Liberty, which broadcasts some hours per day to Iraq. In Iraq there used to be 5,500 Czechoslovak specialists who were building the refineries, breweries, roads. The Czech Republic government definitely wants to appeal to America. The Czechs always have to be with some country which is stronger and bigger—in the past it was Germany and Russia, now it’s the USA. The Czechs don’t know how to be alone, to be alone against someone. Pill: What do you think is more important to do immediately, today or tomorrow — humanitarian aid or regime change? Asad: Regime change. Most humanitarian organizations are good, especially if they are organized by individuals. But when it has some connections to the American government, it sounds suspicious. The USA doesn’t do anything for free, from the goodness of their heart. We should stop being naive. They give as if they were going to get something in return. Pill: Will you return to Iraq? Asad: I will be 60 soon. I surely want to, but I haven’t been there for more than 30 years. I would be scared even if the regime is changed. Iraq won’t be immediately democratic. I will wait and see. |
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